Copal 227 hours not flipping

[Johan de Jong]

Just got a Copal 227 with a lot of issues.
One is that the hours do not flip (only the minutes flip, not the hours).

I took it apart and laid out the parts as they were when I received it. Now I doubt the parts are in the correct order. Or maybe something is missing.
Could it be that the spring that is left of the hours should be in between the hours and minutes? Or do you see something else that is wrong?

[flipoclock]

Hmm, I never actually took apart a 227 that far, I never had a similar issue before... If/when I find the time and some space, I can take one apart, a parts clock that is, and can compare it for you.

[dpwellis]

The hour wheel should be engaged with the gear shown immediately to its left (across from the problem spring) in your picture, and that gear should be coupled to the main (minute) axis via the gear below it. When assembled, does the hour wheel rotate freely, does it rotate in sync with the near gear, and does spinning that gear cause the lower wheel to turn too?

It may be that one of the gears has stripped, but I can't see anything obvious in the picture.

I don't recognize the spring you're concerned about - I share your concerns. If you reassemble entirely without that spring, what happens? Putting the spring inside the hour wheel makes a little bit more sense, but I can't think how you'd want a spring between two pieces that aren't rotating at the same rate.

[Johan de Jong]

The gears are all working, but the hour wheel does not engage with the gear to the left, because it moves too far to the right.

I think that some spacer is missing between the hours and the minutes. I checked with all my other clocks and with most of them if I look between the wheels I see some plastic or brass ring. I did not see a spring in any of the clocks, not on the left and not between the gears.

I also noted that on the right of the minutes there is a brass ring around the plastic that engages with the gear on the right. Although it fits nicely there it does not seem to do much, so I thought maybe this brass ring needs to go in between the wheels. Then though the wheels are too far apart for the finger that should hold back the hours to do its work.

If you have a 227 can you have a look between what is there between the wheels? Maybe without disassembling you may already see something. The light on your phone may help to get a better view.

Thanks and a merry Christmas!

[flipoclock]

Without taking it apart, I can see there is a brass-like ring in between hours and minutes.... Would you clock have been apart previously by an unskilled person? Seems like it.

[Johan de Jong]

Thanks Robert.
I tried to put that brass ring in between the hours and the minutes, but it just does not fit. The ring is 4 mm wide and there is only room for 3 mm.

In the meantime I have gotten convinced that what I've got here is a "Frankenstein", a clock made of parts of several clocks. I compared my mechanism to the 227 I see in these two videos I found in these posts:
https://www.flipclockfans.com/forum/...eauty-restored
https://www.flipclockfans.com/forum/...-and-whitening
The mechanism in my clock is very similar, but I see two differences:
- In the videos the finger holding back the hours is of the type that is attached to the back of the clock. In mine it is attached to the bar above the hours/minutes by two rivets.
- In the two videos the neon bulb is mounted with the wire to the left, in mine the wire is on the right. This does not make much sense as the mains cable enters on the left and there is not much room to move around. As you can see in the photo below someone worked around this by leading the wire over top of the clock.
The way this is done with yellow twist ties is a clear giveaway that someone has been messing with this clock.
And so is the way the motor was connected: by twisted wires and insulation tape!




Since it is not gonna be fully original anyway, I'll be pragmatic and just make it work. I created a plastic ring from an old pen and put that in between the hours and the minutes. Now that is working fine. Still have to make up my mind how to deal with the wire to the neon bulb.

Thanks guys for the help!

[flipoclock]

It is definitively possible that it was put together by disassembling several clocks, who knows... There were 2 different version of the 227, one of the differences being indeed the light coming from the one side or the other side, so that could still make it original to this clock, but if it does not work with the parts that are in there, that's a different story.

Good luck, I am sure you will turn it into something that works!

[Johan de Jong]

That is interesting, so maybe it is an original after all? I could indeed squeeze the wire around the back. It is tight but there is a route.
Thanks for the info! It is all working now

[dpwellis]

I just got back to my Copal 227, which I'd never actually taken apart as it was working as received. But here's a shot of the mechanism:


I didn't take it apart further, but there appears to be some kind of washer in-between the two wheels:

I don't see any spring in there.

[Johan de Jong]

Thanks! This looks like the same mechanism as in the video. If I see it correctly the washer in yours is made of plastic, so that is yet another small variation.
I still think the spring should not be there in mine, but somehow there is just a little too much room and the spring resolves that.

[Johan de Jong]

Just got another Copal 227 and to my big surprise the mechanism is the same as my faulty one: spring on the left, no ring in the middle and a copper ring on the right. Also the wiring for the neon bulb is laid out exactly as in the first one, including the yellow twist ties. So this is probably all just original as Copal intended it

Then what was wrong with the first one? The only difference I can find is that it looks like (I did not take it apart, so I'm not sure) that the hour wheel has a bit larger protrusion on the right side and thus keeps the wheels a bit further apart. That's all.

To the previous owner: if you ever read this, my sincere apologies for suspecting you of messing with this clock (well, you did with the wires connecting the motor, but not with the other bits ).