ELAC rd-100

[Wasted]

Im trying to restore 2 of these flipclocks and the issues Im stucked with are the following


the one is nearly ready. I replaced the filament light with a small amber LED (which I connected to the DC power from the radio)
The synchro motor works well (even though a little bit noisy), the radio works pretty well, but as always the mechanical properties of the actual flip mechanism has its issues after so many years

This issue manifests in the leafs not falling always correctly. The problem comes around the 45 minute and keeps on up until 03-05 as you also can see in the first photo

the second clock has the usual problem of the plastic copal gears (a copal gc-2464 itself). The plastic gear attached to the brass gear of the motor has been "smoothed out". (photo2)

My aim is to open the cover and check the broken gear. Find a replacement or 3d print one. my FDM 3d printer is to thick for this kind of a job but I hope I can get my hands on something more detailed. But I dont have a non violent way of opening the cover as the cover has no screws, and it is pressfitted into place (photo 3)..

is there a way to open it without violating it beyond repair? I dont have another copal motor so I dont want to destroy this


thanks

[Mackey]

There are members who are trying to solve the problem of working with these Copal motors. I'm resigned to the probability that they're just not going to be sustainable. Clearly they weren't made to be serviced.

I have thought about getting into the gear box, and the only way I see is to carefully drill out the posts on the side you show on the side with the brass gear, then tap and screw ... but I don't even know if the material would support this.

Many have tried to come up with ideas to replace individual gears. My opinion is that going forward we're going to have to just replace the whole motor. There are d/c syncronous motors out there ... I just haven't looked into it.

What I end up doing is just buying another clock and swapping parts. So, as you can imagine ... I have lots of parts around here. There's no money in flip clock restoration, I can tell you.

As far as the flip mechanism ... I'd sure like to get my hands on that. It will probably be impossible to diagnose this from here. I'm wondering though, if the flaps at around 45 are sticking. Maybe there's some gunk where the little plastic pins fit into the wheel on either or both sides. I would try just manipulating the flaps in that area by hand. Maybe try some graphite in that area. I have been known to flush out a whole mechanism with water .... man... what a mess. I'd try my first suggestion.

Keep us informed on how this goes.. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

[Wasted]

no you helped a lot even by telling me what not to do

I agree there is no money in filp clock restoration (maybe in 10-20 years if they become a fashion again). I (like you) got hooked on it for the pure pleasure of this old technology



1. flip mechanism . Man you are extreme. But this gives me the notion that the flip mechanism is not so fragile, so I will start by hand manipulating it. I hope it will be something easy to solve, the problem probably lies around the 45 minute only

2. Copal. Ive read some people here exchanging gears so I thought there was a way to do it easily and I couldnt find it. So there isnt. So I will just try to open it by drill or dremel and see how it goes.

as for finding another motor. I m not sure I would be so easy. You can find Synchro A/C motors but to recreate the exact gearing would be a pain in the ass to get the timing right. You can go the digital way and put an arduino to do the whole work, but that also would take a lot of experimentation. Thats why I thought of going back to replacing the faulty gear (the way I see it, there is only one gear that is prone to breakage, and that is the first one after the brass gear.

Of course I will update you with all my progress (or lack of thereof)


thanks again

[Mackey]

Looking forward to hearing how it goes! Thanks for the update.

[Wasted]

so here we come again

1. the filp mechanism stucking was easy peasy. Something oily has stuck to the numbers after 44 until 03. Cleaned it with alcohool, numbers flip like charm now.


2. Drilling the motor was easy. I just lightly drilled with the dremel the two pinned parts and the gears unstuck quite easily. The third pinned part was already broken probably by the person owning the clock before me. Pretty bad hack job but the mechanism survives. Anyway on the second photo is the destroyd plastic gear. Small gear 10teeth 3mm wide. Big gear probably was 10mm wide but as far as the teeth are concerned...

I spent 2 hours trying to count the teeth but it was impossible. I ended up unscrewing the good ELAC RD-100 and counted the teeth there. So 40teeth 10mm wide.

My 3d printer wont be able to build something so fine and small. I will search for a suiteble gear...

[Matthew]

Gear replacer here. Opening the motor is the easy part - finding a replacement gear is the trick.

Mackey - I have to disagree with you on the point of replacing motors. If we are able to service the gears, we won't have to gut clocks for replacement motors - which is also unsustainable because the functioning clocks are few and far between. Making those functional flip clocks nonoperational by gutting them for their motors doesn't really fit in with our cause of trying to restore flip clocks here. After all, we are only caretakers and there will be others after us who will like a flip clock on their table/shelf/nightstand, right? Also - for many people to get another flip clock is nearly impossible, not to mention a functional one. In my lifetime, I have seen about 20 flip clocks total at most for sale here in Czech Republic (and Slovakia) - they are extremely rare here.

We simply have to find someone who can make these small gears for us. I found a guy. The gear he made me was a bit crude, but hey - IT WORKS (yes, so far so good, my clock's been running for 14 months - we'll see how long it'll last).
I'd like to fix as many flip clocks as possible, they should be used and displayed. I find them fascinating, they are a clever mechanical contraption, a conversation piece and infinitely cool to have.

I managed to fix a flip clock with a chewed up gear , IT CAN BE DONE.

Crap. I must stop being a lazy procrastinating bum and make a video of my flip clock's motor.

[Wasted]

@Mathew nice work

I agree with you on restoration, but mackey has also a point. Because until we find a replacement gear source (its mostly the same first gear that breaks apart), the only way is to canibalize some clocks in order to save the others

finding such small double 40/10 gears is a real pain in the ass. until now Im pretty much clueless. I think I will put my functioning clock on my bedroom and leave the second one aside until I really find something suitable

[Mackey]

Very interesting posts guys. Thanks for posting pictures Wasted. And Matthew, my opinions are definitely open to being changed ... we'll see.
Wasted. Posting the pic may allow someone to be able to check their stock (maybe me ...) and see if one of my broken down clocks has such a gear.

[oldclockradios.com]

I am rescuing every flip clock radio I can and I would advise you guys DON"T THROW ANYTHING out (yet)! I think 3D printing will be solving our problems. I'm looking into it in the next few months. I have several of those 40/10 10mm gears and they seem to be made of unobtainium. Who is the guy making "crude" gears? I'd like to try them out!

[Matthew]

oldclockradios.com The guy making the crude gears is here in the Czech Republic, I have his info somewhere in my inbox. The trick is I think I offered him too much money for the gears. I'll be looking for somebody else if I happen to come across another broken gear or perhaps I should talk to him about the price.

[Wasted]

I got another clock with a dead motor but a good gear, so I replaced it and it works like a charm. I know this is no solution as you end up with many dead filpclocks, but at least I have a functional clock now

My only problem is that the motor every now and then makes a constant ckricky ckricky noise as it spins. It is not from the gears. I tried cleaning it by dipping it into alcoohol , but the noise persist. Do you know any other method? Is there particular point in the motor that needs oiling?


@oldclockradios. I can assure you the FDM 3D printers cannot help us. I made my first 3D printer 5 years ago and I have quite some experience. SLS printers on the other hand maybe can achieve this kind of detail, but realistically speaking there are two problems

a) the first affordable SLS printer (the peachy printer) is not yet out , and realistically it will take at least until summer to get one in my hands. to make the first experiments.

b) The gears apart from unobtainium, they are consisted of nylon. The SLS printer printing resin is probably not as hard, so maybe the gear will wear out quickly.


I found an SLS service around here in brandenburg. They ask for 5 euros per 3D printed piece so at some point I will make the effort and order a couple to check if they work (I have hafly modeled one on freecad). I would prefer to go there by myself to check on the process, because with so little stuff (like this 10mm gear) you are quite close to the practical limits of the devices.

The practical limits of the devices are a quite different league than the (unrealistic) theoretical ones

at least thats my 2 cents


Im really happy though I m not the only one into this hobby



PS I have an idea of recreating the movement with a stepper motor and a microcontroller but it needs a lot of work

[Matthew]

Wasted Good to hear someone here actually has experience with 3D printing. If I wanted to get something 3D printed I would have to find someone to make a 3D model for me and then print it. But it's amazing that we actually have this technology now so it's much easier to manufacture spare parts - I'm thinking of Moog's relatively recent (as of Feb 2016) re-issue of their System 55 modular synthesizer, which they built as close as possible to the original machines. They used the same exact components from the 1970s and the same manufacturing processes, but some parts were unobtainable, so they had to 3D print them.

And yes, what a strange hobby we have.
My other hobby is reel to reel tape recorders, so in a way it's similar to flip clocks. The machines are old, parts are unavailable and everything is rare - tapes, accessories, etc. Also there's almost nobody servicing them. I buy used things and often marvel at how careless and ignorant the former users were. Recently I have bought some rare tapes and I found out that they must have been played on a machine with alignment and capstan problems (mechanical problems) because they are brutally warped. Stretched and crumpled, terribly mishandled. Just awful. Makes you want to cry to see the classic BASF LGS26 tape in such condition. Oh well. Better luck next time. It's a bit like lottery, buying second-hand things, you never really know the exact condition of what you are buying unless you take it apart and do a close inspection.

[Wasted]

any idea regarding the whining (from time to time) motor???

[Matthew]

Did you oil the motor shaft? You have to remove the gearbox, take off the metal gear that powers the gearbox and the rotor will come off.

[Mackey]

any idea regarding the whining (from time to time) motor???

Wasted, Are you sure the noise is from the motor or the gear box? I had one situation where the knob for adjusting the clock mechanics was rubbing (the knob turned with the mechanism).